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CIVIL RIGHTS TEAM
Civil Rights Reading Room
Disadvantaged Business Enterprise Program
June 22, 2006 Web Conference
Certification Standards and Procedures
Questions and Answers- Chat Room
The following is a summary of the questions raised by the participants during the course of the June 22 Web Conference on DBE Program Certification. The questions and answers summarized are presented in reasonably close order to the sequence of the questions raised by the participants. The list of questions is not intended to capture all of the questions raised as some have been excluded either because they were not pertinent to the discussion or the question was considered redundant and therefore were combined into one question. The questions are not purposely attached to a particular office or individual who raised the question but simply identified by the subject matter of the question itself.
Question 1: If a certified DBE firm converts to an Employee Stock Option Program Corporation should that firm remain certified?
Answer: For a firm to be certified or remain certified it must be owned and control by socially and economically disadvantaged individual(s). This means that the firm must be 51% owned by S&E disadvantaged individual(s) even if the full ownership is by all of employees through a stock option program. Also those same individuals must be able to demonstrate that they control the operations of that firm. Either with respect to ownership and/or control, the individuals whose social and economic disadvantaged status is being relied upon for eligibility purposes must be able to distinguish themselves for the purposes of the DBE program from all other individuals who through a company’s stock option program can claim at least partial ownership. Employee stock ownership programs are not persons. Another problem with this arrangement is that it is subject to change as employees come and leave. In addition, it is impossible to determine the control aspect of the firm. (If 12 of 20 employees are minorities and each owns shares in the company, how can you distinguish those that own and control from the general owners.)
Reference: 49 CFR 26.69(b)
Question 2: Define for the purposes of the DBE program what is meant by “existing” as a firm that has no contracts yet has applied?”
Answer: Under 26.55 of the DBE program regulations, a firm must be “existing” in order to qualify for the DBE program. If one would refer to the law itself under 1101(b), Congress established as the minimum uniform certification criteria to include but not limited to list of equipment, list of work completed, and analysis of bonding capacity. Therefore, a firm is to demonstrate that it is operational or otherwise capable of performing the work it will be doing while in the program. Does existing imply that a firm must have received a contract in order to be an existing business? No, but it does mean that the business exists beyond simply being on paper.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.65
Question 3: How much of a percentage must be owned of the affiliate(s) to count in the small business size?
Answer: There are no prescribed limits or percentage of ownership but consistent with the criteria set by SBA in 13 CFR 121 affiliation can occur in those instances when there is common management, common ownership, and constant contractual relationships.
Reference: 13 CFR 121
Question 4: Do concessionaires have to comply with the $19.57M gross receipts limit?
Answer: A firm is to meet the SBA standard as well as its gross receipts cannot exceed the maximum threshold set by Congress of $19,570,000. With specific reference to concessionaries, under 49 CFR 23, they are to be small business but the maximum threshold is set at $30 million averaged over a three year period.
Reference: 49 CFR 23
Question 5: What’s an ACDBE?
Answer: ACDBE stands for Airport Concessionaire DBE program.
Reference: None required
Question 6: Does the $750,000 PNW ceiling apply to ACDBE?
Answer: Like Part 26, concessionaire owners must meet the PNW requirement but for ACDBEs they have up to a $ 3 million exclusion which requires a letter from the franchisor or the bank.
Reference: 49 CFR 23.35
Question 7: Are we discussing airport concessions?
Answer: Only in the general context of the DBE program certification requirements whereby Part 23 dated March 22, 2005 follows many of the requirements of Part 26 specifically, §§26.61–91.
Reference: None required
Question 8: Can a firm that is owned by another company be DBE certified? Any exceptions?
Answer: No, for eligibility purposes a DBE firm can not be owned by another firm, as set forth in 26.73(e). But the same rule does allow an exception in the instance of holding companies.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.73
Question 9: What other groups are designated by SBA?
Answer: The presumptive groups identified in 49 CFR 26 under definitions, 26.5, lists all those designated by SBA to date. Other groups can be added through SBA’s process on a case by case basis and when so they are automatically included in the DBE program.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.5, Definitions
Question 10: How do we determine the status of the individual when they appear to be of a particular ethnic group but hold him out to be white?
Answer: Consistent with the DBE program provisions on group membership, 26.63, the individual can be required as a routine process to submit one source document that could identify the individual as being a member of one of the presumptive group. If the recipient has reasonable cause to question such membership the individual may be required upon written notice of the need to furnish adequate proof of membership. Such proof can include documentation that would show one’s association, recognition and identification with and by that group. The technique of making visual assessments may be factored into evaluating group membership.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.63
Question 11: Is it a good idea to change the size standard threshold on an annual basis?
Answer: While it might make some sense, the DBE Program size standards are tied directly to those standards set by SBA by law and therefore any updating must be deferred to SBA to issue. SBA does not seem to have a periodic time frame for updating their small business size standards. For DBE purposes, Congress did establish that USDOT can adjust the maximum threshold figure annually for inflation. So far USDOT has not raised this limit on an annual basis. Won't this create a moving target for maintaining eligible firms in our portfolio? A constant adjustment to the size standards which has previously always resulted in increasing the figure could have a substantial impact on assessing whether a firm is small business based on present day or over the extended life of firms’ existence in the DBE program.
Reference: None required (option stated)
Question 12: What is the status on the MOU between USDOT and SBA?
Answer: The MOU has effectively expired: but, the 2003 final rule established the procedures to follow when a SBA firm seeks certification as a DBE and those procedures are still in effect and should therefore be followed until further notice.
Reference: None required
Question 13: Does the interest in other businesses count as an asset in calculating an individuals’ PNW?
Answer: Yes, the only exclusion is the individual’s interest in the firm whose participation in the program is being sought. One could ask for current balance sheet on the other businesses. Accounts receivable for an individual is considered an asset. It's an asset to the owner because if it was an investment, then it would be not repayable.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.67
Question 14: What about estimated taxes as a liability on PNW? Is this a valid liability?
Answer: Under 26.67 rules for determining social and economic disadvantaged status the individual owner must submit a signed, notarized statement of PNW, with supporting documentation. One of the standard supporting documentations expected is the individual’s personal income tax returns. The filing of estimated taxes is an accepted practice by the IRS. The IRS has specific rules, conditions and forms to accommodate an individual in preparing and submitting estimated taxes to the IRS in meeting one’s tax liability. The IRS for estimated tax purposes, breaks up a year into four payment periods. Therefore an individual making such claims can furnish the appropriate supporting documentation anytime during the year. It would seem appropriate to assess whether the claimed tax liability is commensurate with the value of the asset that the liability might be based on using standard IRS rules.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.67
Question 15: Is it the correct understanding that one cannot use CUF as a basis for certification?
Answer: The simple application of a firm’s failure to perform a commercial useful function on a contract can not used for rendering eligibility certification decisions. Consideration of whether a firm (i.e., regular dealer) performs a commercially useful function is solely a counting issue towards meeting the DBE goals by certified DBEs. Except as provided in subsection (a)(2) of 26.73, while one cannot use the mere lack of performing a CUF in rendering any decision on the firm's eligibility, you can question its eligibility to remain certified when there is a lack of performing a CUF over many instances. For example, if a DBE steel erector fails to perform a CUF because it always used a prime's crane this could reflect on the firm’s ability to be in control of its firm because a lack of independence which is an eligibility standard.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.73, 49 CFR 26.55
Question 16: Can a holding company be certified as a DBE?
Answer: No, a holding company cannot be certified pursuant to 26.73(e).
Reference 49 CFR 26.73(e)
Question 17: If a firm graduates from the program due to exceeding the NAICS size standards, is it possible for the firm to re-enter the program if the 3 year average falls below the size limit at some point in the future?
Answer: Yes, while the question was only phrased to cover small business thresholds, a firm can reapply once its 3 year average is less than the prescribed size standards set by SBA and less than the maximum threshold. This reapplication can be upon the time the firm's averaged gross receipts falls below the small business standards. Much like the question of reentry based on size standard the same rule applies to one's PNW less than $750,000. Since the PNW statement is not based on averaging the individual can seek re-entry within the time period set by the individual States DBE program waiting period (NTE 1 year).
Reference: 13 CFR 121
Question 18: According to SBA, brokering firms are CUF, from a DBE standpoint are they certifiable and if so under what subsection would the guidelines fall?
Answer: Yes, with respect to brokering under the DBE program, such operations can be counted towards the goal see 26.55(c). Under various sections of the rule; 26.61 and 26.83, whether a firms is a contractor, regular dealer or broker, only firms certified as eligible under the procedures and standards set forth in part 26 can participate as DBEs in your program.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.55
Question 19: Is co-signing the same as contingent liability?
Answer: Yes. According to 26.67, contingent liability does not reduce an individual’s PNW.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.67
Question 20: How important is a DBE's Business Plan while attempting to be certified?
Answer: The business plan provision in the regulation is an optional element of the program that a State can adopt but the provision is not an eligibility standard. Therefore, whether a firm has a business plan is not by itself an eligibility standard set forth in Subpart D.
Reference: None required (opinion)
Question 21: If a firm is certified in another 15 states and another State denies the firm, the firm appeals to DOT, DOT upholds the denial should the other 15 states decertify the firm?
Answer: No, you don't automatically decertify a firm if the DOT upholds the decertification in another State. Each decision between States is independent from each other. What you can do is use the facts as evident in the appeal decision to look at their continued eligibility in your state.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.86
Question 22: Please define socially and economically disadvantaged.
Answer: Section 1101(b) of SAFETEA-Lu defines it has having the meaning such term has under section 8(d) of the Small Business Act . . . : except women shall be presumed to be socially and economically individuals for purposes of this (program). USDOT as a result in 26.5 defined socially and economically disadvantaged individuals as any individual who is a citizen (or lawfully admitted permanent resident) of the United States and who is Black American, Hispanic American, Native American, Asian-Pacific American, Subcontinent Asian American and Women. In the regulations the USDOT has identified those countries of origin for those persons under each of the presumptive groups just identified. Also included is any individual who is found to be socially and economically disadvantaged on a case-by-case basis following the criteria in Appendix E. It is important to note that the presumption is rebuttable to ensure only those individuals even in the presumptive groups are genuinely disadvantaged.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.5
Question 23: Must the contribution of capital be from a person's independently-owned assets? If a joint asset is "split" with a portion being deemed "capital contribution" where does that fit? Is the joint asset not being strictly independently-owned?
Answer: A person’s contribution of capital should be from one’s own assets. When it derives from a joint account, you count 50% of that as belonging to the socially and economically disadvantaged owner if you are in a community property state. If however the individual lives in a non-community state the legal rights to that joint account may not be so clear but it would seem to also be open to whether the person claiming ownership contributed to the account in which funds to acquire the firm were used. If in fact the person did not contribute any assets to that account it could be argued that any money from that account is not independently owned assets. If the joint owner (non-S&E) renounces his rights to those assets, and is not involved in the business, you may be able to count them toward the owner’s contribution of capital. With respect to jointly owned assets see 26.69(h)(2)(ii).
Reference: 49 CFR 26.69
Question 24: A firm has a physical address in Washington D.C. and is certified by WMATA. The firm then moves physically to Alexandria Va., if the firm does not apply for DBE status in Virginia, are they in violation of Home-state certification since D.C. is technically not a state?
Answer: A question that additionally could be asked is did the firm inform the recipient of these changes? If not, then the DBE has violated the provisions of §26.83(i). Whether DC is a state or not does not really matter under the DBE program. With respect to a follow-up question if a firm moves outside of its home state can that home state evaluate whether the new location effects its continued eligibility? Yes it can and should involve the two states working together to coordinate their respective responsibilities in the certification process in meeting the home state definition.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.81(d)
Question 25: What if the owner of a firm works part time for the post office delivering mail and has no experience in construction? What if wife lets husband keep president title and she just claims to us that she really makes decisions and has ownership and financial control?
Answer: No. neither scenario meets the requirements of 26.71(d)(g) and (j). What is the true role of the wife under either circumstance? The regulations speak directly to part-time ownership, expertise/experience and holding the highest official position in the firm.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.71
Question 26: What about a large non-minority owned business that encourages employees (typically non-minorities) to establish a business entity wherein the spouse (a minority) is the majority owner. The S&E majority owner is responsible for administrative work and only knows about the other work because of having been married to the non-minority for years?
Answer: Unless you can establish that the firm was originated with the owner’s personal assets and that she controls the day-to-day operations of the business and thereby meets the requirements of 26.71(d) and (g), the eligibility of this firm for the purposes of being certified into the DBE is very questionable.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.71
Question 27: What if the principal owner lives in a different state from their firm and if the principal owner lives in a different state, how are they executing full control?
Answer: Whether the owner can control a firm by being located in a different state is not necessarily a conclusive point of evidence of one’s eligibility. For example, what if a firm is located on the Indiana side of Louisville, Kentucky? The only dividing line is a river. Is it a red flag that raises serious questions about the owner’s ability to control the firm? Yes, it can. What if for example the owner’s location is over 1,000 miles from the location of the firm? It can show the need to look beyond the surface. This also emphasizes another key point about the DBE program and that is the certification process does not start or stop upon the initial certification and therefore the eligibility of a firm needs to be evaluated during their time in the program (i.e. annual affidavit) as in this case there continues to be proof that the S&E owner is able to control the DBE firm.
Reference: None required (statement/opinion)
Question 28: If S/E owner is a business major but has done retail, can he/she control steel reinforcement and fabrication?
Answer: The mere fact that one has a degree in business does not necessarily indicate that one can control a steel reinforcement and fabrication business. This type of business involves much more than retail. The S&E owner must be able to demonstrate to have the managerial and technical competence and experience directly related to the type of business (see 26.71(g)) the firm is involved in.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.71
Question 29: In regards to PNW, Section 26.67 b(4) states in part: If the basis for rebutting the presumption is a determination that the individual's PNW exceeds 750,000, the individual is no longer eligible for participation in the program and cannot regain eligibility by making an individual showing of disadvantage. Is this applicable only to people remaining above the cap or also to people who once exceeding the cap now fall below the cap?
Answer: This is a rephrasing of the question asked earlier concerning reentry into a program once denied or decertified and the answer to this question is yes anyone can seek reentry upon lapse of the applicable time frame set by the state for reapplication (NTE 1 year).
Reference: None required
Question 30: Can a DBE trucking firm purchase rare materials from a pit who sells to the open public, and haul it and be given credit for hauling and supplying same?
Answer: This is considered a crediting question on hauling versus material supplier; therefore, it would be evaluated consistent with 26.55(e). It does however raise a side issue that while the regulations is not explicit towards the certification of the various categories a DBE can operate in while in the DBE program, it is essential that in keeping with at least 26.61 and 26.83 , every firm that wants to participate in the program must be certified. This includes contractors, regular dealers, truckers, brokers, etc.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.55
Question 31: What constitutes a material supplier for DBE certification?
Answer: The DBE regulation is not clear under Subpart D as to the criteria for determining whether an applicant wanting to participate in the program as a regular dealer is eligible to participate as a DBE. In the absence of clearly defined criteria under Subpart D the regulations do provide clear guidance on what a regular dealer must do in order to perform a CUF once in and participating in the program. Therefore, the provisions of 26.55 and especially 26.55(e)(1-3) become the criteria for determining the eligibility of the firm for entry and participation in the DBE program. Again as noted in such subsections as 26.61, 26.83, etc., only those firms certified as eligible are to participate in the program. Since there are multiple circumstances that can play in meeting the provisions of the Part 26, they are not addressed in these answers. One key point that can weigh heavily in such decisions is the consistency of the DBE regular dealer with normal industry practice for the product to be supplied.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.55
Question 32: If a firm does new work and the work is accepted/approved by the source, will this be enough to expand their scope of work?
Answer: It could be sufficient but the DBE firm must be able to demonstrate that all of the eligibility standards for the additional work have been met and has been certified by the UCP for that additional work before it can be used for crediting purposes as a DBE.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.71
Question 33: Does the firm have to show that it is operational and has resources? What is the real answer ... do firms have to be operational and have the needed equipment and resources ... or is this just about I can type - so I'm going to be a typing company - I don't have a typewriter or computer but I can type?
Answer: Throughout regulations under 26.13, 26.71 and even in light of the requirements of 26.55, the applicant must be able to demonstrate they are independent and the S&E owner is in full control of the day-to-day operations of a firm to be eligible to perform specific types of firm. So a firm must be operational and capable of performing the type of work they are certified to perform for crediting purposes while in the DBE program. This capability by necessity would include the necessary resources including having the necessary workforce and equipment, see 26.71 and 26.55, to perform the work. A further reference is 26.83(c)(6) which requires the DBE “to provide a list of equipment . . . and license . . . and key personnel it posses to perform the work it seeks to do as part of the DBE program.”
Reference: 49 CFR 26.71
Question 34: In regards to part-time ownership, if when asked during the onsite how many hours per day do you work, the person responds 2-4 hrs per day and does not work anywhere else, does this constitute part time ownership in regards to a trucking firm that is under utilized.
Answer: With respect to the last part of the question the fact that the firm may be utilized is not a certification issue, therefore, no response is provided. In regards to whether someone may be a part time owner because they spend 2-3 hours per day operating the business is not considered sufficient evidence to render a decision based on such limited facts. There are two basic parameters to keep in consideration. First, the DBE must possess the power to make day-to-day decisions on matters of management, policy, and operations. Second, the DBE cannot be engaged in outside interests that “conflict(s) with the management of the firm or prevent the individual from devoting sufficient time and attention to the affairs of the firm to control its activities.” A question could be if the person (I assume the S&ED person) only spends 2-4 hrs, who is the person in charge during the remaining part of the work day and if that person is a non-S&ED person is the S&ED person in full control.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.71
Question 35: Please clarify: isn't a telephone interview appropriate if the recipient finds the other state's on-site acceptable?
Answer: NO, telephone interviews are not appropriate.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.83 (c ) (1)
Question 36: Do all of the states have their UCPs up and running?
Answer: No, at the time of the web-conference there are approximately 4 states that do not have an approved UCP.
Reference: None required
Question 37: A lady achieves her ownership by a SBA loan co-signed by her husband then pays the loan off, 5 years later she applies for DBE status, is the contribution of capital suspect even if the loan was repaid and the husband is not a co-signer on other loans?
Answer: While there may have been a question on whether her contribution to acquiring the firm may not fully meet the eligibility standards of 26.69 before, because there has been an extended time since the initial acquisition of the firm, the question before one based on present day circumstance today is her continued ability to own and control the firm. The USDOT under 26.73(b) sets forth that one must evaluate the eligibility of a firm based on present circumstances. Since the initial acquisition included her husband, the immediate question upon them applying for certification today is what, if any role does the husband play in owning and controlling the firm considering all of the facts in the record, viewed as a whole. You can not apply past history to this case.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.73
Question 38: What does UCP stand for?
Answer: It is the acronym for Unified Certification Program.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.81
Question 39: Should we include all reasons for denial or just a few good ones?
Answer: The answer is yes on including in a denial or decertification letter all reasons for taking such action. This is a good practice because some appeals are challenged in court.
Reference: 49 CFR 26.85(a), 49 CFR 26.87 (g)
Question 40: In a case of community property (in the State of Texas), how do you separate the husband and wife's initial capital contribution used to acquire the business?
Answer: When it comes to community property, it seems the state has in effect established the equity in all interests of the husband and wife no matter the extent of one’s contributions to that asset of one party over the other. There are other conditions set forth in 26.69(h) in separating the independent owned assets question.
49 CFR 26, Preamble Page 5119, February 2, 1999 FR Notice
Question 41: If an individual who is an employee in a recipient's DBE Office file a Third Party Challenge as an INDIVIDUAL, against a certified firm; the recipient issues an intent to deny, has an informal hearing and makes a determination that the firm is eligible to remain certified, can the individual who filed the Third party Challenge appeal the recipients decision to DOCR?
Answer: Yes, an individual outside of its employment with the recipient and especially outside of its job responsibilities can file. But the appropriate office/agency/department to receive such complaints is not the DOCR but the operating administration offices that the recipient gets its majority of federal funding.
49 CFR 26.103(a)
Question 42: Which SBA office is notified when there is a denial or decertification?
Answer: Without any specific guidance as to which SBA office one would notify upon denial or decertification, it could be a reasonable rule of thumb that the SBA office that rendered SBA’s certification decision whether it is SBA’s HQs office or one of its field offices shall be notified.
49 CFR 26.86, 26.87
Question 43: How often is an onsite review required after initial certification?
Answer: There is no requirement to conduct an on-site review beyond the initial certification process. Certainly, other situations might occur to justify another on-site review, for example, a third party complaint, change in ownership, work code expansion, etc.
49 CFR 26.83(c)(1)
Question 44: How can state DOT certification officers be held to the requirement to accept SBA decisions and forms and not do a thorough investigation on our own? 95% of the time, the information is outdated and inaccurate. The applications themselves are not the Uniform Certification Application and are usually more than two years old. We keep being told to be careful of fraud, etc. But then you tell us that we have to accept whatever they give us.
Answer: There is nothing in the MOU or in the process and procedures set forth in the June 16, 2003 final rule that stipulates that a firm certified by SBA is automatically certified into the DBE program. The fundamental purpose of USDOT and SBA working together was to streamline the processing of applications by a firm certified into one program and wishing to be certified in the other program. It was clearly recognized there is significant differences between the two programs. Under the new provisions of 26.84 and 26.85, it is considered a reasonable course of action to bring the information supplied from SBA to present circumstances to enable the recipient to meet the provisions of 26.73(b). However, if you have reasons to challenge a firm’s certification with SBA, you can bring this matter to the attention of SBA and request that they take another look at the firm.
49 CFR 26.84
Question 45: Typically, in our certification process the onsite is performed last thing before the decision is made. In regards to a complete package and the 90 days, does the 90 days start with the completion of the onsite interview?
Answer: The 90 day time clock starts when the certifying agency has determined they have a complete application. Some may actually begin processing the application including conducting an on-site review before receipt of all desired information because the information requested maybe in an area that may not impact what the recipient was trying to accomplish in conducting the on-site review, e.g., ownership – tax returns.
49 CFR 26.83(k)
Question 46: If after three years all that is needed is an update or certification of their present status, is there a need for an on site? If not, one can see how it can get to be several years since the last on site visit.
Answer: As already noted there is no prescribed requirement to conduct an on-site review after the initial certification process. There is no requirement to conduct an on-site review every three years in light of requirements of 26.83(h).
49 CFR 26.83(c)(1), 26.83(h)
Question 47: Family-owned firms: this was not discussed, if a company is owned by mother, daughter, son, etc. is this considered family owned?
Answer: Under 26.71(k), it addresses the issue of control when one or more of the immediate family members are involved. Under 26.5 the USDOT has effectively defined for purposes of the DBE program who fall under the definition of immediate family members. This definition is also in effect for any issues surrounding ownership by family members.
49 CFR 26.71(k), 26.5
Question 48: Some concern about a general acceptance of an 8(a) approved firm: 1) SBA's regs do not require proof of initial contribution; and 2) SBA regs require that the S&E DVD individual only possess technical or managerial expertise; and 3) SBA regs only require management & control by S&E DVD individual, not necessarily an owner.
Answer: A general statement that covers many concerns that have been raised about the SBA’s certification process and its inconsistency with that required under the DBE program. Again as mentioned above the MOU and resultant 2003 regulations were not intended to prevent DBE program recipients for asking these critical questions in ensuring that applicants fully meet all of the eligibility standards. Therefore, the process and procedures set forth in the 2003 rule were drafted to allow a recipient to obtain the necessary and critical information that enables the recipient to make an informed decision of the firm’s eligibility.
49 CFR 26.84
General Comments:
Various participants asked the question whether the answer to the questions covered in the PowerPoint is yes. The answer to each question is yes.
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